Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:20:31 -0400
From: Alan Berens
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Subject: Caulking chainplates
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X-Rcpt-To: gary "at" gizmology.com
Jeff,
The old caulk can be laboriously removed with a narrow, sharp chisel and lots of
acetone. But in my experience, caulking the V32 chainplates in the conventional
manner is hopeless.
On our V32, slots were cut in the deck for the chainplates, leaving the balsa
deck core exposed. Caulking was then smushed in to the gap between the slot in
the deck and the chainplate and the chainplate cover screwed down. At best, bond
failure between the caulk and the chainplate will allow water to seep along the
chainplate into the cabin. At worst, it will allow water into the deck core.
Nothing I tried (Sikaflex, BoatLife, 3M5200, etc) worked either well or long. The
bond between the caulk and the stainless steel chainplate simply fails under the
cyclic loading of the chainplates, I suspect due to the inelasticity of the
caulking and the difficultly of bonding to polished stainless steel. Recaulking
the chainplates was an annual unpleasant chore. Until ......
Ok, here is the solution. It is a bit of work. Use a wooden form to make some
epoxy/fiberglass rings that will fit around the chainplates with a gap of 1/4 to
3/8 of an inch. The height of the rings should be the same as the thickness of
the deck core plus the top layer of laminate. Cut away the top laminate and the
balsa core until you have enough space for the rings with a gap of about 1/8"
between the rings and the deck core. Put the rings in place and center them on
the chainplates with wood spacers. Now pour somewhat thickened epoxy (I now use
System 3 resin with various System 3 and Gougeon Brothers fillers) around the
outside of the rings. This will both glue the rings to the inner and outer deck
laminate and will thoroughly seal the balsa wood so that no water can get into it
in the future.
Now go to an automotive glass installer and buy some of the black butyl rubber
tape used to install auto glass (not cheap). It comes in various cross-sections.
I used tape with about a 3/8" circular cross-section. This stuff is quite sticky
and very elastic. Smush it into the gaps around the chainplates -- this is a bit
of a pain since the stuff will stick to whatever you use to compress it into the
gap. Be sure to get all of the bubbles out and leave it protruding above the
deck. Now screw down the chainplate covers. The rubber should ooze out the gap
between the cover and the chainplate. The butyl rubber is readily cleaned up
with/dissolved by mineral spirits. I did my chainplates this way in the spring of
1990 and they haven't leaked in the slightest since. I've even stopped worrying
about the problem.
Alan
RJBreen "at" aol.com wrote:
> I remember the surveyor saying, "Make sure you recaulk all the chain plates."
> I do have some moisture that has streaked the wood where the chain plates are
> mounted. Today I tried to take out the old caulk so I could put in new
> caulking.
> Does anyone have a secret on how to scrap out the old stuff. It's a real
> hassle to get out. Can I just clean the surface and if it is still pliable
> coat the surface and leave the old stuff below? I mean lift the cover and
> clean off the surface stuff and recoat it with Life Caulk so it squeezes back
> up through the plate opening.
>
> Jeff Breen, V-32
>
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Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:53:47 -0400
From: Alan Berens
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To: valiant-list@sailnet.com
Subject: Re: Caulking chainplates
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Hi,
Perhaps ring is not quite the right word. The ones I made are rectangular with
radiused corners so that there is a gap of about 1/4 to 3/8" between the ring
and the chainplate all the way around. Yes, I did cut away the top of the deck
laminate, but I made sure that the chainplate cover would conceal what I had
done. Once the top of the laminate is removed, you can easily cut away some of
the balsa core, exposing the lower layer of laminate. Remove a further 1/8 to
1/4" of balsa between the upper and lower laminates. There was a considerable
gap between the lower laminate and the chainplates.
The rings I made were about 1/8" thick. I made a form using hard maple and
applied several coats of wax to it. I then wrapped the form with fiberglass tape
saturated in epoxy resin. After the resin hardened, I was able to slide (with
difficulty) the longish piece of tape/resin off the form (I should have tapered
the form a bit). I was able to make three or four rings from each of these
pieces. I set the rings over the chainplates and glued them to the lower deck
laminate with thickened epoxy. Once this cured, I poured slightly thickened
epoxy around the outside of the rings. The gap between the rings and the top
laminate was just large enough to allow me to inject the epoxy into the gap
using a syringe. The epoxy will fill the void where the balsa used to be. As I
recall, at some of the chainplates, the balsa was not well bonded to the deck
laminates and quite a bit of epoxy flowed horizontally between the deck
laminates. I just kept adding epoxy until it hardened enough to stop flowing. A
word of caution: Do this in cool conditions and use a slow hardener. The
internal temperature of the deck on a warm, sunny day is quite high and you
don't want the epoxy to cure too quickly.
Balsa not well bonded to the deck laminates will certainly allow much water into
the deck if the chainplate caulking fails. I would suggest sealing your deck
around the chainplates as I have outlined even if you want to use conventional
caulking. Some rather large areas of our deck delaminated and were repaired
under warranty before Uniflite went bankrupt. I was very glad I didn't have to
pay that yard bill (several thousand dollars).
Along these same lines, I have installed an round epoxy bushing in every
through-deck hole for everything on the deck that I have ever installed --
winches, blocks, handrails, liferaft chocks, etc, so that when the caulking
fails water will not be able to get into the deck. A bit laborious and
time-consuming, but worth it to me. Wet balsa turns black. Mine is still tan
everywhere. The surveryor who did an insurance survey a few years ago expressed
a bit of surprise at this.
Alan
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 01:19:17 -0700
From: Leonard Ablieter
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To: valiant-list@sailnet.com
Subject: Re: Caulking chainplates
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As long as we're talking non-marine substances (butyl rubber) I might
throw out another suggestion. On my previous V40 I had this problem with the
chain plate for the inner forestay. This was a long time ago before I knew much
about boats. I did dig out the old stuff (whatever it was in those days) but
then followed a friend's advice and used duct seal, which is
a black, bituminous looking mass that handles like play dough. No mess, comes
right off your fingers. It's used to seal anything that leaks, especially roofs.
And it can be removed again years later, comes off like play dough. That chain
plate never leaked again. On my new Valiant I used it to seal antenna cable
coming through the cockpit coaming when it wasn't practical to install a proper
throughdeck fitting. It never leaked and 5 years later came right off and could
even be re-used. Needless to say it has virtually unlimited elasticity.
Incidentally, I also had the experience of 5200 coming right off the chain plate
of one of my starboard lowers when I had to dig it out to fix a leak on my
new V40. I may be wrong, but my feeling is that it's not the lack of elasticity
that is the problem, 5200 is very elastic, but that the 5200 wasn't entirely
fresh any more when it was applied and therefore didn't adhere to the polished
SS. As most of you may know, 5200 has a limited shelf life and goes bad even
in a never opened tube or cartridge. If the problem were lack of elasticity
then all the plates should be leaking and at least mine don't (after 20,000 miles).
Leonard Ablieter
New Dawn, V40
Alan Berens wrote:
Hi Jeff,
Yes, a ring for each chainplate, nine in all (headstay and backstay obviously
don't need them). An additional benefit of this technique is that the butyl
sealant is very easily removed. A friend cured the leaking chainplates on his
not-a-Valiant the same way.
Alan
RJBreen "at" aol.com wrote:
> Alan,Ê sounded great.Ê Having just begun to feel as if I was learning to
> caulk you present a new solution.Ê I guess I will digest it and consider it
> next time around.
> How do you handle the lowers and the two upper mast back stays that are so
> close together at the deck.Ê Is that two rings?
> Jeff, V-32
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:56:00 -0400
From: Alan Berens
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To: valiant-list@sailnet.com
Subject: Re: Caulking chainplates
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X-Rcpt-To: gary "at" gizmology.com
Jeff,
The ring thickness should be the thickness of the core plus the thickness of the
top deck laminate. The top of the ring should be flush with the top of the deck.
The spacing between the intermediate backstay and the aft lowers is a bit
crowded, but there is enough room since the rings are completely covered by the
chainplate covers (or should be to avoid having to paint the deck). I did this
with the mast down, but it could be done with the mast up by disconnecting one or
two wires at a time. Good kneepads are a helpful tool for this project. One of
the negative aspects of this job is that after many hours of work, the boat looks
just like it did before you began. Nobody is going to walk by and say, "wow, that
really looks nice".
Alan
RJBreen "at" aol.com wrote:
> Alan, Walk me through making the ring once more. The diameter will be a tad
> more than the chain plate. It will be the same thickness as the core.
> I will have to cut a bit of deck so it drops down snugly. Epoxy in place.
> Fill with butyl rubber. Yeah? Where my uppers and lowers are sandwiched
> together? Cozy?
> Jeff, V-32